Originally Posted by yum

Oh dear, from expertise, ppl are on SR, FS and ES now

What's next?

Originally Posted by valence

Primaries giving straight energy returns have been bad for the game.

That said, only 2 attributes fall under this: leadership and soul reaping. Both have been bad for the game. In lesser extend crit hits from the assassin and dervish mysticism.

Energy is a balancing source of skills. Effects being to strong can for example be balanced by paying more energy for it. However other primaries have effects notable on energy as well. Take for example monks, divine favor lessens the need for healing and saves you energy over time. While an assassin trying to heal, might need to cast 2 skills for the same healing amount where as the monk casts 1 (with divine favor, healing near the same). The difference between good e-management through primaries is that the good variants can only be used on the primary line skills. For example the divine favor, which only works on monk skills.

Primaries are suppose to give reason to the prof you take. Expertise is good designed except for 1 part. It affects secondaries. Reducing the cost of the ranger skills isn't that bad on it's own. You basically reduce the cost of skills that a ranger is suppose to use, and the ranger will therefor be able to use it more often. Other professions can still use it, but not that often due the energy limit.

When a ranger can use secondary stuff with an huge expertise benefit, they can suddenly spam attack skills they aren't suppose to spam. Take for example the current R/D build where the ranger can spam infinite attack skills without problems. A ranger isn't suppose to do better what a dervish can do.

Most people against a change on expertise give the argument that it would remove the second profession from the ranger. 'we are suppose to use secondaries'. While you are free to use any skill from a secondary, this doesn't mean your build should be created from solely secondaries (see the problem with necros?). Better yet, if you use mainly secondaries skills you should ask yourself if you got the right primary. Sadly enough, the current scythe wielding R/D build only works with a R primary.

Your secondary is suppose to make your primary stronger, for example with utility skills. Your secondary is however not your primary job, leave that to the people who choose your secondary, as their primary.

In other words, don't be a whammo.

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

The alternative may involve ruining it for good players. Not worth it. And low end PvP is casual anyways. At that level, its just a game.

Originally Posted by You can't see me

If you're using the logic that primary attributes should only give their maximum output to primary skills, shouldn't we nerf fast casting because Elementamesmers that run around?

(You can see where I'm going with this.)

Originally Posted by You can't see me

If you're using the logic that primary attributes should only give their maximum output to primary skills, shouldn't we nerf fast casting because Elementamesmers that run around?

(You can see where I'm going with this.)

Originally Posted by Draginvry

I fail to see what is wrong with Expertise. IMHO, it's one of the only primaries that IS balanced. Why do you think Anet barely touches expertise, yet every single patch they nerf shouts (imbagons) and the changes to Soul Reaping (infinite energy) and the fact that the ONLY reason to use Strength at all is because it has usefull skills?

If any primary attributes need balancing, expertise is at the bottom of the list.

Originally Posted by shoyon456

If a dervish picks up a bow, its a joke... If a ranger picks up a scythe, he turns into a damage spammer, thats just plain wrong

Originally Posted by thedeadwalk!

How's this:

Expertise be changed so that a lower number of attribute points are needed to get the max effect of non-Expertise linked skills (ie 10 Marksmanship would be like it was set to 12)? There would be no energy management aspect to it, but instead, would act like a built in minor, major, or superior rune, depending on how many points are in Expertise.

I think this would allow it to maintain versatility but without spamability. Other issues will most likely arise, but I think its the spamming that really annoys most people.

And, I just want to say, I have no problem with how Expertise works, I'm just throwing this out there.

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

hmm but then you would have to lower the cost of many ranger skills to compensate.

Originally Posted by jiggles

The op talks about r/w bunny thumpers, is he forgetting RaO is a ranger eilte, and the actually bar only uses two warrior skills?

One of which is adren based and the other only costs 5e.

Originally Posted by legion_rat

quit nerfing and learn to beat what they got. Rangers in pvp with a bow are not very effective they dont do alot of damage, They can spread a handful of conditions but for killing power they vs support, they need to use they 2nd proff. Leave them alone.

~the rat~